Part 5 of 10
level 8
allthewholeworld
23 days ago
I appreciate the way you are exploring your own thinking, your memories, and the differences in the way this affected people. I cannot fathom how you could find cruelty to animals hilarious though.
level 9
MaskAgee
22 days ago
Why are you stuck on the cat? Instead of appreciating what Baron has said quite so eloquently you just dismiss it with one fell cat. Rinpoche hated cats! Obviously air head Leslie didn't know that. Maybe it was a premonition -- if your wife brings you a little kitty -- kill it! The story stinks too, because there weren't any cats at RMDC. Or maybe she was just shocked that Rinpoche didn't like her little pussy and got mad at him! I sincerely believe Rinpoche was more abused by his students than the other way around. Mitchell Levy used to beat him up and yell at him! You do know Rinpoche was paralyzed on one side of his body. Pretty much defenseless!
level 9
BaronAsh
23 days ago
Well, to be honest I don't really remember that story clearly, though I do remember reading her post and finding her current take on it quite out of synch with my sense of how things felt at the time. My later point being that subjective truth, for lack of a better term, is a fickle beast. Which is why much of all this contretemps is tricky, both in how to transmit and how to receive.
But in terms of hilarious: I am mainly going off the Johnny and Max's dog one. And that does involve some sort of cruelty. It was also a sort of doggy abhishekha too!
level 5
DismalPerformance
18 days ago
Baron Keep posting. you know more than anyone else on this thread. You maybe 50/50 on CTR, but i hear him coming out strongly through you.
level 6
BaronAsh
17 days ago
edited 17 days ago
Thanks. Well, I'm not really 50-50 on CTR, however I am in the sense that I don't feel the need to try to make out that everything was perfect, nor that perhaps some things really weren't really off. However,
the core experience was powerfully, radiantly, good and I can't erase that from the personal akashic record, nor deny it, and am certainly not interested in trying to keep up with ever-changing neomarxist revisionism in order to cast new judgement on the past. We all have the present to deal with, which of course presents more than enough challenges as it is. But thxs for yr kind words.....
level 1
allthewholeworld
25 days ago
something to consider: many of the requests I see are: "what are your thoughts on named person?" I understand why this is important to people. You have had years of contact with an individual and want to know if there is something from the inside to know. Yes, they all have their stories, and they all have their enemies. the acharyas gossip about each other just like everyone else does, so you hear stuff if you are around them. same with the administrators.
in general my thoughts are that these are all long term recipients of abuse and have to one extent or another continued this by abusing others. abuse here means not looking out for what is best for the students. I feel that dharma teachers are fiduciaries.
Abuse also means encouraging people to stay in a situation that has clearly harmed many before.
The number of people in therapy, or whose lives have been devastated by either of the mukpos or Tom Rich may seem like fantasy to the isolated world of shambhala, but everything in the isolated world of shambhala is just fantasy anyway. They ignore news and create fake news: Ooooh an acharya I talked to said the sakyong is entering a whole new phase! Ooooooh. Then it's the same old insipid cliche. And you have to purchase it. Meanwhile he's picking his teeth in a first class seat headed to some shopping vacation at guess who's expense. And in a nearby city someone is feeling suicidal because of their involvement in shambhala or their abuse by the court or the duplicity of the leadership. True story, happening right now. An intervention occcurs, and yet another phsycian's office hears about the cult of shambhala. Thanks, acharyas. I don't have good words to say about you because of your offensive silence and mishandling of peoples' trust. Speak out and others will credit you.
So they all participate in an abusive system, keep silent, pretend that everyone in the world worth speaking to is in shambhala, hide from the world and compound the isolation. Let's all keep in mind that shambhala is tiny, and so this is like a bunch of people fighting on a boat out at sea. Nobody actually cares. If I know something really awful, and I know it for sure, I will speak it.
I am not about to accuse someone of a crime if I don't know the facts. In some extreme cases, I may repeat the rumors, but only if they come from absolutely convincing sources. People may be very upset about me for not doing their fights for them. If you want to speak out, please speak out.But you don't need me to report the same gossip and allegations that you can find on facebook or wherever else. I am not here to publicize things you can simply google.
level 2
barleyfat
24 days ago
A couple of days ago I complimented you for not slipping into bitter rancor. now I wonder if the stress of all this reditting is getting to you. You said you were new to Reddit. Please let me share some knowledge with you.
Reddit makes us into assholes.
Anonymous posting allows expressions that we would never do in face to face, those of us who are already reddit assholes normalize that behavior, even encourage it, snark gets upvotes, then it becomes habitual and can even bleed into real life.
Maybe you should take a break, come back with a new thread in a couple days. We don't want you to become Arupajhana7.
level 3
allthewholeworld
24 days ago
haha I appreciate your advice. I don't want to be an asshole and you are probably right.
level 1
allthewholeworld
18 days ago
edited 17 days ago
detailed stuff per your request (#1)
(someone requested the dates: I believe this was 2005 or so. maybe 2003) I offer to give an acharya a ride to DIA after an assembly with Mipham. On the way there, here is some dialogue:
Me: “how is it for you being around him all the time?”
Acharya: “he is not always an inspiring person to be around”
Me: “what does that mean”
Acharya: [detailed the varieties of excess and laziness he witnessed, tons of television, zero practice. Then said this:]
“My biggest concern is that he is going to get drunk and take a rich sangha member’s 15-year-old daughter upstairs and get her pregnant and then the whole thing falls.”Me: Uhhh… [not comprehending that this person actually meant it, thinking it was a worst case scenario and that I was being tested somehow. Years later, reading BPS#3, horrified.]
At the time, I imagined this acharya to be a person who would report such a thing immediately, along with any other abuse, because that is how these acharyas presented themselves in their role. I took this to mean, “he gets crazy and anything could happen someday.”
And I also thought this person was trying to raise a little crazy wisdom cognitive dissonance. Now, I think this person may have been thinking out loud. I think this acharya was living with the ominous sense of having seen too much.
level 2
breathing216
18 days ago
Thanks for taking the time to write those down. Could you include the year for these stories? It would help me compare to where I was at that time and how I was viewing things. It would also help us get a sense of how long this has been going on.
level 3
allthewholeworld
18 days ago
this has been going on since his teenage years. most of my stories are between 2004 and 2016. it was always the same, but he fluctuated in which vice was predominant. it was sex for awhile, then he got in too much heat for that, so he started to extract money from people and upgrade his lifestyle. Binge drinking was always a part his life.level 4
breathing216
17 days ago
Thanks, but I was hoping for the actual year of each story. I understand you are trying to paint general impressions with the material you can share, but in the "push back", I often hear "it was like that before, but he changed" or "that was a long time ago". So the clearer the facts, the more convincing the argument.
level 5
allthewholeworld
17 days ago
I put in a few dates to help your quest.
the push back won't be pushing very much longer. if you need more truth with dates, join fb and navigate to the ATWW thread.
there is no need to try to convince anyone. those who wish to know will do their own research, it is all out there, and a lot more is coming.
level 6
breathing216
17 days ago
Thanks again. I am not ready yet to join fb. Hopefully, all the information will become available to everyone.
level 7
allthewholeworld
17 days ago
just posted some dates per your request
level 8
breathing216
17 days ago
Thanks. It's scary stuff.
level 2
Cashoobutter
18 days ago
What is DIA
level 3
allthewholeworld
18 days ago
denver international airport
level 1
allthewholeworld
18 days ago
edited 17 days ago
more detailed stuff
[this is from 2015, maybe 2014 or 2016] I am at SSA during the first glimpse of the big secret book for the kasung. I am meeting with him and his older Kusung come in and start talking to him and his attention turns from me to them so I remain quiet.
They seriously discuss the possibility of switching the Scorpion Seal training to a reading of Trident, because that is where “the real transmission is.” Old Kasung & kusung laugh together.In her 1987 essay “Sex and Death in the Rational World of Defense Intellectuals”, the US academic Carol Cohn argues that the language of defence strategy – particularly nuclear defence – is overtly sexual. “The history of the atomic bomb project itself is rife with overt images of competitive male sexuality,” she writes.After attending a Cold War era summer course on nuclear weapons, nuclear strategic doctrine, and arms control – run by “white men in ties discussing missile size” – she discovered the way they spoke about nuclear war was rife with imagery of male sexuality.
Cohn noted phrases like “penetration aids”, getting “more bang for the buck”, “to disarm is to get rid of all your stuff”, “the nicest hole – you’re not going to take the nicest missile you have and put it in a crummy hole”, “the Russians are a little harder than we are”, and India’s first explosion of a nuclear bomb as “losing her virginity”.
She also heard references to vertical erector launchers, thrust-to-weight ratios, soft lay downs, deep penetration, and protracted attacks versus spasm attacks (referred to by one military adviser as “releasing 70 to 80 per cent of our megatonnage in one orgasmic whump”). And when she visited a Trident submarine, she was invited to “pat [STROKE] the missile” – leading to this simply brilliant reflection:
“What is all this ‘patting’ [STROKING]? What are men doing when they ‘pat’ [STROKE] these high-tech phalluses? Patting [STROKING] is an assertion of intimacy, sexual possession, affectionate domination. The thrill and pleasure of ‘patting [STROKING] the missile’ is the proximity of all that phallic power, the possibility of vicariously appropriating it as one's own.”
-- The long history of nuclear dick-waving: “White men in ties discussing missile size.” by Anoosh Chakelian
This program is an entry point for Dorje Kasung to enter the Trident Path of Study and Contemplation. Participants will receive the reading lung of the Trident text as well as the 1st three Chapters of the text.
To attend the Trident Intensive portion of this program (Friday evening & Saturday) you must be an MPE Vet and have a current Dorje Kasung oath (one year or lifetime). No exceptions; and Friday evening is Mandatory.
-- Trident Assembly with Bonnie Taylor, by atlanta.shambhala.org
[b]
I am struck dumb. All the participants had practiced for a year or more just to get there, and genuinely wanted to carry forward their SSA [Scorpion Seal Assembly] path. But he was terribly bored, and was trying to get out with as few talks as he could get away with. They were, I felt, seriously considering just switching the program and saying, “this is the wish of the guru.” I protested.I don't mention this because it was a joke, but because it wasn't a joke.
the respect for practitioners was very low. they were a captive audience and their real job was to adore him, which is what he lived for.
He ended up giving one talk to the group. One. He had led a guided meditation before that. $1500 plus seven full days out of your life for a guru who views your needs as a hassle and is looking to get out of his responsibility to you at any moment he can see an opening.Scorpion Seal: Year 10 with Sakyong Mipham Rinpoche, May 20 - 31, 2018
level 2
beaudega1
18 days ago
That was always my impression . . . the phrase the used to pop into my mind was Sakyong Elsewhere, because he either was or seemed to wish he was on the rare occasions when one saw him. Mr. Minimal Effort, can't be bothered.
Any idea how he spent that year he supposedly spent in “deep retreat” around 2010? That was a real eye-opener for me, the funding campaign was launched demanding the several hundred thousand dollars in salary and expenses he felt entitled to annually regardless of what he was doing. And the fact that they could hardly ever be bothered to update us about where he was and what he was up to despite the hundreds of thousands of dollars we coughed up to support the “retreat.”
level 3
allthewholeworld
18 days ago
i only know that he used that time to compose of lot of practices that turned me off. this is where he found the inspiration to revamp virtually everything, including the refuge and bodhisattva vows. it became his inventory creation retreat, i guess. a few friends were on that retreat with him, but they said little. Also, they are not particularly involved with meditation practice, and I doubt he was, either. But no, I don't have much knowledge of the details, but many do.
level 4
TharpaLodro
8 days ago
this is where he found the inspiration to revamp virtually everything, including the refuge and bodhisattva vows
Do you mean the little practices they give out or the actual text of the vows? I took the refuge vows recently, not the bodhisattva vows, but the actual vows were just the threefold refuge people have been saying since the time of the Buddha...
level 1
ChogyDan
26 days ago
Have you gone public with your stories? Why or why not?
And following up that question, given that we don't know how true the stories out there are, can you point to some stories that you feel represent who SMR really is?
level 2
allthewholeworld
26 days ago
Thank you ChogDan. I have gone semi public, and I have helped many, many people get out and begin to get through the process of leaving.
I am not going full public, not yet, because that would make talking to me too stigmatizing for those who are still in. I will give some stories soon, but let me look through the rest of the replies.
level 3
Icy_Peanut
25 days ago
If you were good friends with the Osel Mukpo for 20 years, why did it take you so long to perceive his pathology? You come across as very articulate and intelligent, so this is hard to understand.
level 4
allthewholeworld
25 days ago
i was not as intelligent as some -- the ones who left immediately. I was gullible, I wanted to believe i was part of a good community. I didn't want it to be what my heart was suggesting it was. I was not much help to myself back then. I believed the older practitioners who told me it was the best thing in the world.level 1
Arupajhana7
26 days ago
edited 26 days ago
Please share what you can so people can know the truth. Of course make sure you are safe from harm. Maybe reach out to Matthew Remski? Or Andrea Winn? Or both? They seem to be good platforms for getting information out there about what he has been doing.
This is not the first time that I have heard that SMR may have a mental illness. I did hear, shortly after the scandal broke, of one senior teacher questioning SM's mental health. But I never heard any details about why they thought this may be the case.
How were you able to break away from it? When did you realize that he had a mental health issue/what made you see him as a sociopath? (Again, if it's not safe to answer here, may be better to send your info to Andrea or Matthew. They might try to vet your claims a bit via corroboration before publishing.)
ThinkProgress.org would be interested in this story as well. They seem to treat their sources well. But you would need to be able to offer some proof of your claims.
If you are recognized within the community as someone who has been close to SMR and in his inner court mandala over many years, just going public would be enough. People would believe you. Thinkprogress or NYT might want to interview you.
level 2
allthewholeworld
26 days ago
There are many excellent questions in your post Aruphajhana7.
I have communicated with Matthew Remski, but not Andrea Winn. I respect what Winn has done, but she is unwilling/unable to face the truth of Mipham's father, whose story is changing more and more as people come forward with truly awful stories of his abusiveness too.
Regarding Mipham's mental health, he is a tormented soul in every way, and has been manipulated and abused by his handlers for decades. He is essentially a twelve year old living a life of grandiose delusion which is enabled by a handful of men, several of whom have been pushed out at this point, thank goodness. But the worst one is still there.
I appreciate your concern for my safety. Shambhala is full of weak, small minded men and women, and there is not much they can do to me. I am taking my time with my story, because if I strike, I strike deeply. But we are talking about a network of hundreds of people who are living with a Scientology level of delusion and fear. And their leader is a deeply compromised paranoid sociopath, surrounded by half a dozen people with similar narcissism, and money. I don't want to harm the wrong people. It is tricky, but I am not going to do nothing, either.I have friends who spent years with him in day to day lives as his attendants. they have spoken to the press, including the NYT. I am not certain, but I think there are stories being written that are somewhat more investigative. I wish they would come out with them. definitely appreciate the welcome that these first two comments have offered me. thanks redditors.
level 2
cedaro0o
26 days ago
I would like to add my 2 cents to the suggestion that anyone looking to reveal information should work through a reputable professional journalist who would be able to work with the source or sources to
manage the level of public exposure to what is healthy and healing and not disruptive.I would also hope that if the source or sources are struggling with trauma from the experience that they have a support network in place possibly including professional counselling that could provide assistance through a difficult time.
level 1
allthewholeworld
26 days ago
One comment: if you want the help I can give, ask relevant questions. If you want to advise me on what to do, go back to bed. I am on top of this.
level 2
notso-olddog
25 days ago
allthewholeworld: I have important questions that might insure my own mental/physical/emotional/livelihood survival. Have left ushq well over almost 10 years ago. However, I still live in location mentioned above. I have not until recently recognized the
ghosting/gaslighting phenomena but have struggled with its reality for over 12-15 yrs. Experiencing ghosting daily with 2nd & 3rd gener’s through use of lies, misinformation that seriously curtails my love life: ghosting occurs through us of old-old dogs (homeless) informing ushq of location almost daily now. Run into smr-Samaya’s in my neighborhood, in town and so on. Has resulted in like as of livelihood for over 9 yrs, interference in my academic life, unable to gain employment despite credentials and extensive experience; often gaslighting has been coordinated with the old-dogs/newbies/regginites.
How do we I get support to work with counteracting phenomena (thought I was going mad for a long time). Many experiences mentioned now makes sense. Real attempts to have me classified as/institutionalized to destroy my life - using old/present therapy community. Interference in my medical treatments. Seeking help and support confidentially with trusted old timers who know the phenomena. Attempts to contact local police would solidify their claims, actions against me. Aware of ushq infiltration of support systems into local enforcement authorities, However, since local investigations continue, along with ghosting, fear and paralysis setting in. Experienced serious infiltration not only by old-dogs/3rd-gen samaya’s, but by smr in personal household, Help needed. Local Ka-Acha dangerous and continues to coordinate activity. Know many old dogs, court-eras, directors & members at ushq over the last 15 yrs.
Please respond. Question and statements genuine and not motivated as provocateur ...
level 3
notso-olddog
25 days ago
Sorry about auto-correct errors, Referring to life situation not love life. Can some tell me how to send private mail to alltheworldover? New to reddit....
level 3
Arupajhana7
25 days ago
So Shambhala has Samaya Loyalists in the Boulder police force that is investigating the crimes? That is very serious. That could impact the investigation.
level 4
notso-olddog
25 days ago
Want to clarify so there are no misperceptions. I am not aware of actual loyalists in the force. However, I am familiar with how the center operated for sometime, i.e., calling the force on members through false claims — members/friends, including myself who have experienced the framing effects of such actions (often through gaslighting networks within the center) have been harassed persistently. I’m sure that the current perceptions by the force or investigators have an$ are accounting for such false claims by loyalists (* I would hope, but don’t know *).
To readers, please do not refer to ushq by name. Often targets at the location have been imprisoned for violating local laws and/or investigations into personal conduct. To the identifying misspeller, I would appreciate your not being so petty. This shit is serious! it’s also provocative. Let’s maintain decorum around these matters. Manipulation of locals, use of teenagers to provoke behavioral misconduct are serious matters.
So to reiterate, no I am not claiming such involvement in local force. When I talk of penetration, I am referring to the ability of gaslighting network’s ability to convince reasonable decent people to act on their behalf. It can be called perceptual manipulation; it destroys and continues to affect my life, as well as others. I wish more folks pull speak up!!!
level 5
Arupajhana7
25 days ago
Thank you for raising awareness about these issues. I used to hear that non-Shambhalians in Boulder refer to Shambhalians as "The Buddhist Mafia". I had thought it was a joke when I first heard that...
level 5
JoeGrand64
25 days ago
You can send a pm by clicking the envelope on the top right of your screen.
And the mispelling thing was actually a bot, not a person.
welcome to reddit.
level 6
notso-olddog
25 days ago
Thanks kindly JoeGrand64. If you have any insights into how I can handle the dilemma, please respond via pm.
level 7
JoeGrand64
25 days ago
Not sure I understand it.
level 6
BaronAsh
24 days ago
I followed your instructions but still cannot figure it out despite having used computers since the 80's! Can you provide a couple of steps please?
level 7
JoeGrand64
24 days ago
When you click the envelope it takes you to a second screen with options. On the left, about 3/4 up it says "send a private message." Under the reddit logo. Click that and add the user name. Bob's yer uncle.
level 8
BaronAsh
24 days ago
edited 24 days ago
HA! I had to go again and again about five times until I saw it. Hate it when that happens. One of those people who is 'always right!' Moved today into a lovely place in a drop-dead beautiful area with cobbled streets, horses clopping by down broad avenues, the largest lake in Mexico 100 yards away though out of view, buzzards nesting in the huge eucalypti towering above. There, I'll drink as few cervezas on hot days as possible (to reduce ever-maturing girth) and try to get into some regular (high quality) reading and writing, both dharmic and non-dharmic. Meanwhile, this is the bestest thread of all and I look forward to absorbing it the next little while, once unpacking done.
level 4
hazulu
26 days ago
That confirms what I know or heard.
The part about the 15 year old girl is new to me. I was involved with BK for many years, before and after I left Shambhala. I thought he was my friend until, quite suddenly, he became my enemy. I am still working on realizing what a piece of shit he really is. Say, is there any way I could communicate with you in private?
level 4
EdmundButler
25 days ago
He is currently under investigation by the Boulder Police.
level 1
cedaro0o
26 days ago
What drew you to shambhala? What was compelling enough that you stayed involved for 20 something years? What repulsed you from shambhala? What experience or telling experiences "broke the camel's back" for you and caused you disavow shambhala?
If you had the power, what would you do with shambhala? Change it? Dissolve it?
What, if anything, is worthy of salvage?
level 2
allthewholeworld
26 days ago
another awesome question!
Mahamudra drew me to Shambhala, as it was the only place in my horizon that seemed equipped to teach it, and when I came in it was expected that teachers like Thrangu, Tenga, Khandro Rinpohce, Dzigar Kongtrul, Ponlop Rinpoche, and most especially at the time, Khenpo Tsultrim Gyamtos would always be the primary teachers of buddhadharma. Mipham was the "spiritual head" but was not seen as someone who was going to teach deep dharma. He was a support for practice, not a primary delivery method. I received outstanding training, the likes of which I sincerely do not think are available these days.
In shambhala at that time, people went on solitary retreat. they encouraged others to do the same. Between my twenties and now I did dozens of longish solitary retreats. That culture has been gone ever since the early 2000s.
What repulsed me was what I found when I was invited in from the margins. I was a yogi type, and a scholar. I was involved with studying and training in mahamudra with Kagyu-Nyingma lamas, and I assumed that was what the whole thing was all about. Keep in mind that "shambhala" was a retired vision at that time. I never imagined that it would be booted up again, and Mipham would usually drop hints that he was going to teach Nyintik cycles (dzogchen) which he had gotten from Dilgo Khyentse and later, Dodrupchen (a single abhisheka, not an extensive training). We all knew: Larry M, Dorje Loppon, Gaylon, the crew, that it was looking more and more like a Nyingma course of actions ahead. Some were upset by that, but I was thrilled. I was an advanced Kagyu practitioner (as far as western people go) and I really wanted to train in dzogchen. I stayed because I was unable to predict the crazy, Trump-style fiasco of the thing called the Scorpion Seal.
When I got inside, I saw that a single person, Adam Lobel, had mobilized to hold as much power as possible. I couldn't tell if he was going to be a boon or a bane, but he had inserted himself into the scene in a way that made him indispensable to Mipham's activities. Adam did not have a fraction of the training or integrity necessary to hold such a role, and this alarmed me.
What repulsed me then, was the collection of very inappropriate people, almost none of whom were dedicated practitioners, participating in sycophantic, stratified social rituals that have nothing to do with dharma and everything to do with control.BTW, by the time I left there were zero dedicated practitioners of buddhadharma left. I am aware that is a judgement call, but given my background and training and intimacy with the situation, it is one i am willing to make. Dharma had left the building by 2014 or so.
The straw that broke the camels back was getting personally involved with Mipham and seeing his level of sickness. I cried more than once, because I had never seen a human being display raw narcissistic conduct before. This can be a reality-altering experience, it is not normal selfishness. It is insanity in human form, and there is no visible entry point for it to be helped. His ritual abuse of people was stunning, but kind of normalized. He would have people flatter him for extended periods. People like me were made to watch acharyas grovel before him in ways that you would think would end their lives. They would squirm before him and degrade themselves with effusive flattery and it was enough to make me vomit. He arranged for flattery sessions, and had his servants alert acharyas and others that they were to "toast" him that day before the assembly of insiders at whatever place he was staying. And then they would do it, the worst display of ingratiating servitude and unctuous degrading fervor. they did it to keep their position or gain new titles. I saw people reduce themselves to subhuman states while he would remain utterly immobile, sucking in their lost dignity like an insect. One person (who left from a similarly high powered role) described seeing him do this as like a spider sitting at the center of a web, observing the struggle of those who had been ensnared, waiting patiently for them to squirm themselves into exhaustion before finally killing them and sucking out their essence. I thought that person said it better than i have here.
How's that sound? Would you like to practice his "Sadhana of Kindness" now?level 3
tashi8888
26 days ago
Thank you, All. It's really important to get this out.
level 3
waterbuffalo777
26 days ago
That is truly appalling. Thank you so much for speaking out about this. I'm hoping that it will protect other people from joining.
level 4
allthewholeworld
26 days ago
thank you for thanking me sevenseven&seven. it sends the message that i am doing the right thing at the right time. it's a lot to say but eventually somebody is going to say it so it might as well be me. I had a short work day so I had the time.
level 3
wabashcannonball108
22 days ago
Reading this passage about the flattery and demand for humiliating “toasts”. I saw this going on and in my mind explained it as the work of a frustrated and inept executive. SMR has no real training or proclivity for running an organization, and meshed with other comments about his feeling that his students were a bother to him, could it be that he got stupid advice from his Tibetan in-laws to “go medieval” and just impose loyalty? The escalation of this seemed to coincide with the arrival of the Ripa family. I understand things like narcissistic personality disorder exist, but what about plain old ineptitude?
Combine a poor understanding of administration with some naïveté and add a collection of ambitious suits who also give bad advice, and it kind of adds up to a kind of multiple cause air disaster rather than a story of sociopathic evil. Maybe just poor judgement and a welling sense of frustration about constant financial dysfunction and the like?
level 3
MaskAgee
24 days ago
I want to ask. It seems as though you never met Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche nor studied under him. So why do you feel the need to disparage him? I studied and worked and practiced with him for 8 years. Your concepts of him are just that. Concepts. All of these problems manifested with the Sawang. Rinpoche was a rinpoche. And Vajradhatu did not have these problems when he was alive. He had no control over how people would react to the power he gave them. Once it was bestowed it was their doing. He could only advise as did. It's kind of like, "You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink the water."
level 4
allthewholeworld
24 days ago
i respect your opinion but it is a not persuasive in the light of how many people have said very very different things than you are.
We are in an age of trust the victim, and you are not playing by those rules, which is your decision.
You knew him, they knew him. You are one, they are many. You can reconcile that. Should I believe you, or people who spent more time with him and more intimately than you did? At the end of the day your words here are probably not going to be the loudest voice, even if I disappear tomorrow. Even without me posting here to begin with. You try to make a strong case, but who else from among his strong critics are you talking with? Is it just me? Until it is all of them, just keep reading.
level 5
MaskAgee
24 days ago
There are not many! Reconcile that! You have one and only one. Leslie Hays is the ONLY ONE! Everyone knew he liked to sleep around. That was a given, like his drinking! During the years he was alive there was no problem. After 30 years there was no problem until the Sawang's (no one ever ever ever called him Mipham back in the day ever) escapades came about and Leslie with empty nest syndrome -- pathological narcissist thinks she's the one. She is. The only one out of how many over 17 years? You do the math.level 6
allthewholeworld
24 days ago
you are not under attack.
level 7
MaskAgee
24 days ago
(More than 4 children)
level 4
fucking_giraffes
21 days ago
Your concepts of him are just that, too. Or have you, like all the rest, forgotten the very basics?
I see only bitter mean students of CTR within my sangha, intolerant to change and clinging to their ideations (attachment and suffering?) We joke that we should stop on the path now before becoming such heartless, rigid, and compassionless humans.All of these problems did not manifest with the Sawang. They are certainly a symptom. These problems were evident when OT raped and killed people and no one did anything. And yet there are still people apologizing for his actions -- my own MI [Meditation Instructor] included. They are still somehow blaming CTR for not being clear enough when saying that OT “could not spread this” (i.e. physically incapable or had better not?).
Has Shambhala changed my life for the better? Absolutely. Is CTR the reason for that? Yes. Do his imperfections, diseases, or fallibility change that? Absolutely not.
Do the structures of the past work for our society now? Are we handling things the best way we can? Are we trusting our own inherent wisdom or are we trying to push ourselves and internalize pain when we are in inappropriate situations?
How do we know what is abuse and what is growth when we are told to experience and become familiar with the uncomfortable?Please drop the defensiveness of CTR. All of the people here at one point or another had a connection or benefit from the teachings. We are all in pain. If you’re not in pain you haven’t been paying attention.
You clearly have experience to share, so please do, but with respect.
level 5
MaskAgee
21 days ago
CTR is not responsible for the sins of his son. Is your father responsible for the way you act? You just another know it all not know anything of what you speak. The Sawang did this all by himself. Rinpoche died in 1987 - 32 years ago and people want to blame him?! You're a fucking giraffe for sure.
level 6
fucking_giraffes
21 days ago
I’m not blaming CTR for what his son did. But are you somehow saying OT and the Sawang’s actions occurred in a vacuum? There wasn’t already a system of enablers and fixers? Don’t kid yourself.
You missed the entire point.
Don’t call me names. Are you the kind of person that results from years of practice? I’m not mad, just disappointed.
level 6
MystifiedByLife
18 days ago
I’m trying to remain open-minded and think critically of ATWW’s claims, but you and another here seem too much like the “one-True-religion” types, with rigid, reflexive and defensive attacks at others in the name of some chip in the shoulder that you seem to mistake as moral superiority. In other words, you sound like you’re hopelessly indoctrinated into a cult that you swear by the heavens isn’t a cult, if only we could see the light.
That’s the impression you’re giving me.
If you’re interested in being persuasive on behalf of your beliefs, you’re going to have to appeal to logic, as much evidence as you can muster (even if it is not so solid that somebody might call it circumstantial, or hearsay, or whatever.
You have to offer reasons to believe you. I want to hear them. Others too. This is all very difficult to make sense of, and
another angry, attacking voice is just going to reinforce what you don’t want people to believe, or they will just block you, if your noise/signal ratio gets too hairy.level 2
sadderbutwisernow
24 days ago
Didn’t know, clearly it was hidden from those not inner circle. Totally makes sense, though, how else to drink like that and still be awake for midnight dinners and all-night talks?
level 3
Arupajhana7
24 days ago
People say they were amazed that he would drink so much and not lose awareness... Is it possible that cocaine contributed to this?level 4
BaronAsh
24 days ago
Define awareness.
His presence was vividly luminous even when asleep.
Even when dying.
Even when dead and sitting in samadhi, which was powerfully perceivable/feelable.
Even the ice flowed back into the harbor in April in silent witness as the fog horns contributed their more audible lament.
level 2
breathing216
24 days ago
edited 24 days ago
Another user rightfully pointed out to me that the topic of Trungpa Rinpoche and cocaine is not directly related to the original discussion, and therefore should be separate.
So I deleted my post above and will make a separate topic. I will post the link here. Please don't comment anymore on this discussion here, but go to the link. Sorry.link:
https://www.reddit.com/r/ShambhalaBuddh ... now_about/prasunya
19 days ago
Yes, Chögyam Trungpa Rinpoche used cocaine -- a lot. Although there are people who have publicly talked about this using their real names, most of us 'in the know' don't for several reasons. First, cocaine is highly illegal. We don't want our names forever attached to cocaine and CTR on the internet. We have private lives, and don't want our kids, clients, and colleagues to know we were involved with cocaine (or that we stood on the sidelines as we watched our then-guru sniff and drink himself to death). Second, we don't want to be trolled by current Shambhala members, some of whom have voracious appetites for denial-fueled revenge. Current practitioners want to believe that CTR was upfront with everything he did, and they cite his horrific alcoholism and womanizing as examples of things he did not hide. So the realization that he was indeed a regular cocaine user -- and one who was not upfront about this -- rubs harshly against the myth of his openness. Another thing to keep in mind when trying to get info on this is that not a lot of people were aware of his cocaine use. His inner circle put forth considerable effort -- frequently laced with lies -- to conceal this. In any case, enough people did see it and I think in the future you'll find more and more people coming forward.
level 1
federvar
26 days ago
You claim to have really serious and very important information that affects thousands of people. If what you claim is true and I was in your position, I would take off the reddit mask and go public. If I decided, for some serious and good reason, not to do it and keep all this serious info for my self, I would also avoid the reddit showoff, because showing off in this way is totally undermining if we are really in search of truth and justice. Or maybe I'm totally wrong, and I will be very pleased to stand corrected.
level 2
allthewholeworld
26 days ago
don't make assumptions. I am very well known for what I am doing. I talk to people all the time who are looking for an out. I worked for years within the organization to dismantle its oppressive structures, and encouraged dozens, possibly hundreds of new students to move on and find a more legitimate community. I did that because I was seen as someone who knew enough to do so. Reddit showoff? I have never even posted here before. I saw the inaccuracies of the posts here and wanted to help. I will go public when I feel like it. People can leave the cult if they want to, it is not up to me to extract them. I left it. Many of my friends have left it. It comes from within. An expose will not do much for the people already within, although it may discourage new recruits.
level 3
federvar
26 days ago
Thank you for your explanations. Not making assumptions is exactly what i was trying to. Maybe you are new in reddit, but i am not and anything is possible under an anonymous name. I hope that our conversation here and your efforts can be for the best outcome, aka truth and justice.
level 4
allthewholeworld
26 days ago
that sounds good. I do understand the challenge of listening to an anonymous source, but I figured, better that than nothing? still don't know.
reddit is bewildering to me. all this came up in a google search when I learned that
my ...friend... lodro rinzler was in trouble for sexual misconduct, so I googled him to verify and found reddit. that was months ago, maybe even late summer. it was also linked to this page, so I read a little to see if I recognized anyone here based on what was discussed. I didn't, so i forgot about it. Now, however, the release of
the investigation is on the horizon, and Shambhala is working in hyperdrive to present a united front and a business as usual attitude. I and a few others are loading the howitzers.
level 5
Arupajhana7
26 days ago
edited 26 days ago
If you do have this information I do hope that you go public with it. Obviously you do have to consider that there may be a negative reaction from the devoted and the Dzongsar types.
But as helpful as it might be to the 30 people or so who frequent this subreddit, the anonymous posting doesn't have much power to stop the gears of Shambhala from continuing with "business as usual". If they have another narrative that they want to spin, they may be able to keep spinning it and just ignore or dismiss the Reddit thread here.
I know you said not to advise you on what to do... But I just wanted to let you know how I feel about it. I really hope they are not able to plaster over these accusations and move on to more of the same.
So if you have info, you have a unique ability to really prevent many people from joining this cult in the future.
level 6
allthewholeworld
26 days ago
I appreciate your remark. I will listen to these pieces of advice, btw.
I think that a lot more traffic is getting ready to come to this page. I am talking to the people who will hear of this tomorrow through other social media channels. Not just the these 30.
level 5
federvar
26 days ago
Ok, i'm glad to listen and consider what you are bringing.
level 6
allthewholeworld
26 days ago
cool, friend. thanks for being patient with a noob!
level 7
federvar
26 days ago
no problem, thanks to you for your AMA.
level 2
Arupajhana7
26 days ago
edited 26 days ago
I agree if they have that kind of info it would be good to share via another source, that's why I suggested Remski and Winn.
Or the police! That would be the best option.
I am open to hearing such information here on reddit, but people will be able to claim its false. Devotees will just say you are making it up. I can understand if the person wants to start here and then go public later. But yeah, this information, I think there is a moral obligation to warn people about it in a way that couldn't be so easily discredited.
level 3
allthewholeworld
26 days ago
I did not see anything illegal. I did not see sexual abuse. Of course, I know all about his sexuality, and there are hundreds of women who were abused. No one is speaking up. I have nothing to report to the police.BTW everyone: I left years ago, I am not "emerging" from the darkness. I am just telling you things you may not have been able to access before. I have been working for this purpose steadily for a long time.
level 4
allthewholeworld
26 days ago
one of the most important points that has not been mentioned in the press is his abuse of young men. Not sexual. He is cruel and abusive in ways that destroy people. His insults of others could make you cry. He is vicious and selfish, but only behind closed doors. In public, he is gamefaced, controlled. People have always assumed that his calm demeanor is a steadiness of mind, indicative of a meditation master. It is a total lack of empathy and disconnect from emotion that is behind that calm demeanor. he controls his public appearance and lets the sycophants project onto him whatever they will. He has his acharyas prep audiences with gushing tributes to his glorious heritage and remarkable accomplishments (which he really doesn't have), and then he comes out and does next to nothing, and then takes the mic and well...you've seen it. Says nothing whatsoever except a lot of cliches and deepity. He is an empty head. He has had better days though. He was a different man in the late 90s up until 2004 or 2005. He stopped practicing meditation before I encountered him, so he is definitely not a dharma practitioner. Adam Lobel told me that in all the time he spent with Mipham he "never saw him practice". My other friends who were his kusung corroborate this omission. And I certainly never saw him practice. Sometimes in meetings he would grab his mala and rush through it, but it always seemed like a show. He was always anxious, always jittery, his foot always bopping along like he had somewhere else he needed to be.level 5
Arupajhana7
26 days ago
Adam Lobel, is he still devoted or will he be coming forward with info to the public soon?
Why do you think we haven't heard about his meltdowns on the men close to him?
level 6
allthewholeworld
26 days ago
shame. silence. fear.
most of them have broken lives and no money and are terrified of samaya.
re Adam Lobel: he was largely an abuser, not a saint. I think he wants to retreat into his family money and keep his mini-guru act alive. avoid him.level 7
cedaro0o
26 days ago
terrified of samaya is a theme i picked up on early when i started listening to survivors.
level 8
allthewholeworld
26 days ago
and all for nothing. samaya with Trungpa was one thing, and has to be handled with care. Samaya with Mipham is a farce, and there is no actual need to treat it like an explosive device. Just walk away and thank your good fortune that you took a scary vow with a prankster.
level 7
Arupajhana7
26 days ago
edited 25 days ago
That makes sense...
I was never very close to Adam, but to some of Adam's closest students I was... Very sad...
What kinds of abuse do you know of Adam Lobel participating in?
level 6
JoeGrand64
26 days ago
The reasons you aren't hearing about abuse of men are various. One reason is that people don't want to steal thunder from the attention to sexual abuse. Another is that coming forward is a risk, and it might not help. A third is that professional people don't want their clients to associate them with the court or the kusung, whether they were victimized or not. Basically the same reasons more women haven't come forward.
level 7
allthewholeworld
26 days ago
very well said
level 7
Arupajhana7
26 days ago
This makes a lot of sense.
There are a lot of professionals in Shambhala who have careers they might not want to lose... Especially now that they might be losing their religious meaning, their career is all they have left.
I knew of some messed up situations where people were referred to Shambhala therapists by their MI, and the therapist would minimize or try to normalize the weird experiences they were having in Shambhala.level 8
EdmundButler
25 days ago
The Land Center Director where I was abused arranged for a Shambhala therapist to mediate between me and one of my abusers. He paid the therapist by giving her a seat at a SS retreat at the Center. Anything to avoid the truth getting out, which in this case was that the Director and his bosses had all ignored my pleas for his intervention. Was the therapist biased in assessing the Director's role in the dysfunction which ultimately led to attempted murder? Weasels, the lot of them.
level 4
spiderysense
26 days ago
Request for Clarification 1: you're saying you 'left years ago' ... the awards you posted as proof of your involvement are from 2017. I got an award (nothing fancy) ... years after the activities for which I received that award occurred ... so I wouldn't be surprised ... or is it that you moved on in a somewhat clandestine manner?
Request for Clarification 2: you are saying "I did not see sexual abuse" and "there are hundreds of women who were abused" ... does the former refer to an inability to testify on the levels of abuse that you are confident occurred?