Inside the Tiny Pathetic World of Sakyong Mipham
by allthewholeworld
January, 2019
Posted byu/allthewholeworld
27 days ago
I know more than anyone I see here in Reddit about SMR and the Court. If you would like, AMA
I know Mipham Mukpo very well. I know his wife too, I know his intimate daily life . I know his teachings as well or better than anyone currently involved with shambhala. I was one of his most intimate friends during the development of his current teaching career, the Scorpion Seal. Yes I know that sounds arrogant, but it is true. I know everyone on the Kalapa Council (the one that ended last year). I know most of the people who run his world, including his servants and secretaries. I know his patrons. I know that he is a terribly sick man who is a terribly dangerous man. There are seriously misinformed people in this reddit sub, and it is clear that people do not have access to the hard to hear facts about this man and his world. The Court is hardly a place where people iron napkins. Very few get behind the gates in Mukpo's life to witness first hand his mental illness and confusion, desperation, and very real sociopathy. I most certainly did, and I am definitely trying to help others get out of shambhala. That is my only intention here. I wish you the best, and will check in now and then to see if anyone has asked a question. If your questions seem sincere, I will respond.
level 1
allthewholeworld
25 days ago
Hello
I got home from work a couple hours ago and opened up reddit and well, this will take me time to work through. As I said, I will respond to questions one by one, and if someone seems to be asking for a private conversation, I will reach out through private message. Otherwise I will post publicly.
I will go through them carefully, and prioritize the messages that seem most urgent. And really, this is an honor for me to offer friendship to those who request it.
I know that some people are trying to out me. Don't worry, I will out myself soon enough, but that is on my timeline. The point is not who I am, the point is who you are, who you want to be, and is your life right now delivering you in that direction. Or in some other direction. We all are directing our lives to one end or another. Which direction are you driving? Whoops, there I went, addressing the acharyas again.
Because you have asked this again and again, I will repeat. Yes, I am still a dharma practitioner. I love the dharma more today than I even did when I first learned to meditate. Getting away from Shambhala helped this, but I still practiced even when I was "in". I think there are many, not just a few, excellent reliable guides in the various traditions of dharma practice, and although I choose to pursue mahamudra and dzogchen (it is what I learned first), I think that Theravada and Zen approaches have a lot to offer us.
In many ways I left Shambhala because I wanted a rich practice life, sort of like I had in the Vajradhatu days. Mipham killed that, it was dharmacide.
I am full of emotion at reading your replies, and I also laugh out loud with your hilarious wisecracks. Like I have said to some of you in PMs, I am interested in making sure the dharma takes root in the modern age, in a manner relevant to our capacity, and that we understand that dharma was taught so that we could attain enlightenment, and any form of enlightenment, be it from a Nikaya, Mahayana, Tantric, Sahajayana, or even modern mindfulness approach is worth pursuing and celebrating. And any stage of enlightenment in those traditions is one more stage than I have attained, so I gotta keep on practicing. But that is the joy of my life, and I have many, many companions who seem to feel the same. There is life after Shambhala, after Rigpa.
By the way, dharma practice is not particularly the practice of listening to a lama teach from a throne. Dharma practice is almost entirely about sitting quietly and entering meditative equipoise. Get the teachings, and then fold your mind into samadhi. That is where the real dharma will be found. Sorry, I am mostly a practitioner rather than a teacher, but it sounds like some of us have lost our connection to the simple transmission that Buddha gave to us.
level 2
Arupajhana7
25 days ago
Thank you so much OP, you've helped me find my lungta again. It makes me so happy that you intend to go public eventually with this. I was beginning to become depressed that the truth wouldn't come out and that people would continue to be deluded and tricked into joining this cult.
You are helping restore my confidence in the Dharma.
For what it's worth I know one acharya who indicated to me that he wasn't very close to the court and the center of that part of the mandala... But nonetheless he hasn't stepped down or spoken out against Mukpo which is very disappointing.
level 3
cedaro0o
25 days ago
Not surprising as Acharyas were specifically selected for loyalty, not merit, as is corroborated here and in Ethan Nichtern's stepping down statement, "We have our titles primarily because of the perception that we are loyal to Sakyong Mipham," https://www.ethannichtern.com/stepping- ... community/
level 4
Arupajhana7
25 days ago
I am Grateful that Ethan Nichtern talked openly about this. Disappointed that he seems to be the only major teacher to not sugar coat it.
level 5
allthewholeworld
24 days ago
Yeah, Ethan wrote well. He lost a lot of income in stepping down, and that probably slowed him in his response, having to have a plan b, and there is nothing wrong with that. People gotta live, and I think he has a baby now. I am glad for him, even though I don't know much about the NYC situation. Ethan is young and intelligent, and who knows how his ideas will transform as he explores the issues from a new perspective.
level 6
10drel
24 days ago
I hope that he will explore issues from a new perspective and not just seek to continue what he's gotten through Shambhala. He just started teaching a yearlong online course in Buddhism, broken into five modules, of which the last one is Warrior in the World. I fear he and others will find a way to freshen up the Shambhala brand without addressing the core problems.
level 7
allthewholeworld
24 days ago
Ethan Will wrestle with this, but I am going to predict that he will do something good. Might not please every single person, but none among us can accomplish such general popular opinion. If he seems to go astray post helpful remarks on his blog. He is not deaf, really. Help him.
level 7
fucking_giraffes
24 days ago
I share the same concerns. I’m in this course and have already requested Ethan hold a separate discussion around Shambhala. From the little that he has said so far in reference to Shambhala, he is not sugar-coating anything. Are you participating in it?
level 8
allthewholeworld
24 days ago
no, i gotta lot on my plate. glad it is good though.
level 8
Arupajhana7
23 days ago
I am not.
level 4
Jinpasertso
23 days ago
First, Ethan has NOT separated himself from Shambhala. He will be teaching with Rupa Acharya Suzann Duquette at KCL in March as part of their annual Shambhala retreat. He has stepped down as a Shastri for what that's worth. He was a big part of the NYC Shambhala Center along with Acharya Eric Spiegel and I imagine that he doesn't want to burn any bridges and dharma is his livelihood. And therein lies the rub.
level 5
cedaro0o
23 days ago
What rub? That one selected for loyalty stays loyal? Rather underlines the point.
level 5
Arupajhana7
23 days ago
Interesting combo... She is fiercely devoted to SMR. Her first reaction after the news broke was to minimize what happened and compared him to Milarepa (whose murders took place Before he started dharma) and tried to frame it as a teaching.
I hope he doesn't hold back in her presence.
level 6
Jinpasertso
8 days ago
I don't think he would ever change anything he says in her presence, and I don't think that she would expect him to. They have a pretty great dynamic. Acharya Duquette was fiercely devoted to VCTR and I am sure she will stand by the Sakyong as VCTR's dharma heir. Ethan is the next generation and they are all finding their way...so it is interesting times for the lineage. Dzigar Kongtrul is going to teach at the Boulder Shambhala Center so maybe things will open up...
level 7
Arupajhana7
7 days ago
I hope you are right that he won't censor himself while next to her. I agree she is fiercely devoted to SMR.
I hope she will make a public statement explaining this letter she wrote to KCL staff over the summer:
http://matthewremski.com/wordpress/shri ... annotated/
level 5
ketomike218
13 days ago
I find Ethan troubling. Not only because he is always pushing politics, but if you scroll back far enough on his Instagram, he used to gush about his guru and even repeatedly hashtagged those posts with #handsomeguru. Why a grown and supposedly wise man would point out handsomeness and attach it to guruhood seems very ridiculous to me.
Furthermore just because he admits shastris were chosen only for loyalty and not for merit doesn’t excuse the fact that he took the title willingly and knowingly. A person with more integrity and wisdom would have turned it down.
It reminds me of the scene in Quiz Show when Charlie is admitting he was given all the answers in advance and all the senators start applauding him for his honesty. Then one senator basically calls him out to say as a grown man he should have acted better. “You shouldn’t be congratulated for simply and at long last telling the truth.”
I’ve had some dealings with Ethan on Instagram and he seems to get very angry when people disagree with him. He strikes me as a very privileged and entitled person (go see how much tuition cost at his grade school and high school) who passive aggressively says “all the best” to people who dare to challenge his wisdom.
level 2
thebasketofeggs
19 days ago
If it isn’t too late to ask... You weren’t a spy all those years, so this perspective is new. How long did it take for you to see things this way? And what was the process? I’ve picked up bits of the answer from what you’ve posted, but if you could describe the process of breaking away, that could be helpful to many. It might also help people see you are not being vindictive. I don’t think you are. To me, it sounds like you are in a stage of separating. Maybe eventually it won’t feel so stark. Though of course, who knows. It may always... Anyway, I am grateful.
level 3
allthewholeworld
19 days ago
edited 19 days ago
not too late at all. I am preparing my "story" just as many of my friends are, so I will certainly tell this stuff to assist others with putting their lives together.
I am not vindictive, I am acting from moral outrage at both the abuses of mipham but also the utter failure of the acharyas and other leaders to do a damn thing in line with their obligation to protect the sangha and to uphold a noble human tradition that has taken the efforts of 2600 years to get to us. They treat it like it is just a meal ticket to protect. Buddhist Moral Outrage. I have friends who are spending their time and money seeking therapy to help repair years of abuse at the hands of Mipham, and I can't stand the weakness and cowardice of the Acharyas and others who just exhibit all the signs of cowardice and denial. These are people who describe themselves as warriors. They are nothing of the sort, and as you can see in my first post, I know them well. Cowards, which is why they are acharyas. Put a group of complicit cowards in charge, dirty them with misconduct so that they are complicit, and they cannot leave you.
I was kept out of anything that MjM didn't want me to see. He put on a good show for me, inviting me to civilized dinners and stuff. I was not an administrator, I was a practitioner and later an advisor to his vajrayana teaching activities (which I was given, but which I did not practice much past a certain point). He handled me so that I would see him in the best light. Probably a lot of people like me throughout the years. So I was fooled, thinking "he's not a bad guy at all. maybe not a buddha, but a reasonable teacher."
I went through stages of grief as all will, and now am probably toward the end of the stage of depression and into acceptance.
I spent years in denial. years. I just couldn't fathom that the whole thing was a fraud. As you may have seen from my other posts, I didn't enter shambhala for either Mipham or Trungpa, I entered it at a time when all the great Kagyu Nyingma lamas were the main teachers, because Trungpa had been dead for almost 10 years, and Mipham was getting "trained". So my primary teachers were Khenpo Tsultrim and Thrangu Rinpoche and others. To me, Mipham was just the person who was holding the amazing venue together. Shambhala was a container for authentic buddhist teachings: that was the only reality I knew. It all changed in 2004.
My denial began to dissolve when I realized how compromised the acharyas were, and how compromised the dorje kasung were. I began to believe that Mipham was a good guy surrounded by incompetence, and so when I was invited by him to "help" I mostly looked around to see where the problem was. I didn't look at him. I was so blind, and I know that is how many still are. It can, of course, be repaired. Even the most cowardly of the acharyas (who I call out again and again as traitors to human welfare) can find their hearts and be courageous, but it won't be easy.
Denial began to dissolve and I had a long period that mixed anger and bargaining. that continued for a decade perhaps.
this is when my process of bargaining was in full swing. When you look at the posts and threads of all the people here and on FB, usually you see people in bargaining mode. this is where people want to say "well I really like the teachings, I don't think I need to get caught up in all the drama." or as Remski puts it, "I got mine-ism". That probably isn't bargaining, but it is also not exactly denial because there is a sense that things are rotten and a person uses a logical maneuver on themselves to avoid action. For me, bargaining lasted years, and my manifestation of it was "well at least we have the buddhadharma." I was holding on to the perceived purity of buddhadharma despite the fact that even it had been used by Mipham and others to terrify people into superstitious silence. Buddhadharma has nothing to do with what happened in shambhala, in my opinion. So, denial went on a long time.
But then, I saw what I saw, up close and personal, and it was so overwhelming to me that I left, after warning the Kalapa Council and a few others, and rebuilt my life. This was a three year period of depression, but it was more like a thawing into spring. This has been an emergence out from depression to acceptance, if we are going to follow the traditional model (which I have found helpful).
So denial began around 2004 with the appointment of Adam Lobel who was as unfit for his role as mipham was unfit for his. I tuned out and just increased my solitary retreat in both number and length. Bargaining began around 2007 when I was able to meet Mingyur Rinpoche at the Boulder center and began to feel that "maybe there is still a chance if teachers like Mingyur are still welcome". I informed adam lobel that I was now studying with Mingyur, and he replied, as far as SMR was concerned I was free to study with anyone I wanted. so I stayed. But that message of openness seems to have been given to a mere few, and to many a very different message was given. At this time of bargaining, anger came in alongside, at seeing the defilement of the acharya system, which should have been the shining light of shambhala but was every bit as bad as Trump's administration.
my life is very good now. I am out, I have many other things going on, and every painful step of the way out of the mukpo maze was rewarded by the life I now have. For others, especially those deep in, with 20-40 years of activity, I think it can be quick and slow at the same time. People can emerge quickly, like having a moment of clarity that impels them to leave, but the lost years will need even more years of processing. Time spent in a cult can be like time spent as an alcoholic. You miss your life and don't grow. Thanks for your question.
level 4
thebasketofeggs
17 days ago
Thank you so much. May I share this away from Reddit. I can’t imagine you’d say no but thought it would be good to ask. Again, so many thanks.
level 5
allthewholeworld
17 days ago
all these posts are public in my mind, thank you thebasketofeggs
level 2
wabashcannonball108
24 days ago
I apologize for trying to “out” you. I respect your desire for anonymity but am so tired of all the sneaking around. I don’t agree with some of your opinions, but I think you have to be heard. Whether someone is adamantly defending SMR on one side, or seeking to utterly destroy on the other, is not the main thing. I am in the middle (I never got hooked and I just tolerated the zealots I encountered). The main thing is that neither side is really interacting. The keeners dismiss social media and therefore can’t listen, and the critics think the keeners are evil. I’m not a keener and each time in the last 23 years I’ve felt the impulse to be zealous it felt like a betrayal of my better sense, so I didn’t go there. I have written scathing letters to the KC and SMR in the past 8 months. I have openly derided the money and admin function for years. I do have the notion that this situation can somehow be healed through deep contrition on SMR’s part AND people not just bugging out. There is value in sticking together and working through it. When you left, I was sad and wondered what it would have looked like if people like you stuck around and simply spoke your mind- FROM WITHIN. I do it all the time and have never been marginalized or treated any worse than a curmudgeon. I think anonymity weaponizes the discussion. Maybe this process is part of your process to eventually write an open letter articulating all your experiences and opinions.
level 3
allthewholeworld
24 days ago
I should also say, with respect, that trying to out someone from anonymity while doing so from an anonymous handle is not the best you can do.
level 3
cedaro0o
24 days ago
Speaking out from within does nothing to warn away newcomers. I was sold on shambhala being a safe place for secular mindfulness meditation practice. I was sold a myth of mipham being a stand up straight arrow family guy. Only via project sunshine, survivors, and allies sharing stories OUTSIDE was I made aware of what lay in wait deeper in.
Look at most center websites and social media groups. None of this dark reality is warned. The propaganda remains the same. The myth building persists and what little is shared is either denied or minimized. Superficial changes are begrudgingly being glacially examined.
Monarch retreats are offered to spend a $1000 week under the gaze of the image of mipham. Opportunities to become $1000 a year Jewel Patrons are pushed. All this before the independent (not really) report is due back on him.
People have been struggling to work FROM WITHIN for decades with no success. Whistle blowing is the only ethical option at this point.
level 4
allthewholeworld
24 days ago
I must agree with cedar0o.
cults do not change into non cults. do they?
no evidence of that. where has an organization that ticks so many boxes of cult behavior ever cleaned up its act?
L Ron Hubbard has been dead for years, but his cult is as strong as ever.
Not saying it hasn't happened, but I study this stuff and have no such evidence.
level 3
allthewholeworld
24 days ago
hi wabash. i didn't know you tried to out me. i understand that, so no worries. I also appreciate your respect for the attempt to let the anonymity remain even though it rubs you wrong. it serves a purpose, at least for a while. anonymity creates the frenzy that cleans out people ears. causes people to read and reread, and in the process, they have to read information that doesn't accord with their view and sometimes it gets in. i am getting a lot of positive feedback about that particular thing: how important it is to do this anonymously, at least at first.
i wanted to change things from within, and in fact that is what I did for several years. but toward the end I was brutally silenced by a few acharyas who removed any part of the path forward for me. rather than stay inside and be silenced, I stepped away, caught my breath, and now its sort of a hello world situation.
do you like country music?
level 4
wabashcannonball108
24 days ago
I keep deleting my comments because I suck at computers. I do enjoy the odd ditty now that you mention. I still do not enjoy Karate Suits though. I’m an anonymity hypocrite no doubt. I just don’t want to see Shambhala less self critical, because it has suffered from being provincial for too long. How can an Acharya “silence” someone? I don’t listen to all the stuff they say. And I know you didn’t care about the title. A lot of people do programs with other teachers and nobody kicks them out of feasts. I still don’t get the “leaving” strategy.
level 5
allthewholeworld
24 days ago
how can an acharya silence someone? through intimidation: removal of access, public humiliation, threatening position, reforming consensus among powerholders to shame you. and of course, accusing one of disloyalty and working against the dharma.
I think you should spend about 20 hours genuinely reading moderns studies on cult behavior and organizational coercion. You have said a number of things which reveal that some things are just new ideas to you. I was there once, which is how I didn't see what was happening.
level 6
wabashcannonball108
24 days ago
If it’s a cult it’s a lame one because nobody tells me what to say or think, nobody guilts or manipulated me into giving money. Nobody has humiliated me or shunned me. You need to write up the instances of the kind of treatment you received and the individuals involved so they don’t do that anymore. Send me the write up and I would actually like to call them up and hear what the hell they were thinking. But “leaving” and making nonspecific allegations is not helping stop it. Maybe I need to get a Karate suit and wear it to understand. And? Does 20 hours of cult podcasts count?
level 7
allthewholeworld
24 days ago
I need to do what makes me feel like I am doing the best to encourage the conversation I set out to support. Your ideas aren't as persuasive to me as you want them to be. But i hope you keep posting and I will keep reading.
level 8
wabashcannonball108
23 days ago
Totally support you and hope we can just be regular friends. No need to agree on this. I was sitting down with someone who is a very longtime Shambhala person yesterday. I asked “howyadoing”. He said “well, considering it’s Don season pretty good, you?” I said “frankly how I’m doing has nothing to do with Don season cuz I don’t believe in that.” His eyes lit and he said, “you know neither do I”. We laughed. Take care.
level 9
allthewholeworld
21 days ago
i like friendship, it is actually one of the best things I have experienced. suggestion accepted. we'll just find time later to work out the details and have ourselves a beverage, a daytime one if you don't mind.
level 10
wabashcannonball108
20 days ago
Yeah daytime. If you get to the People's Republic let me know, or I will reach out if I'm in your neck.
CheredeDarievea
23 days ago
If it’s a cult it’s a lame one because nobody tells me what to say or think, nobody guilts or manipulated me into giving money.
I wish there were a better word than "cult" because that word conjures up images of Heaven's Gate or Scientology. In fact the term "cult dynamics" encompasses a whole range of often very subtle behavior manipulation techniques that aren't limited to religious groups, but can involve something as small as a family unit or as mundane as a workplace.
I totally hear what you mean by "If it's a cult then it's a lame one". That's something I myself could have said up until very recently. I had my Shambhala experience compartmentalized into "Well, I was a big boy and I knew what I was doing, and I could have left any time I wanted, but I didn't, and sure the whole thing was fucked up, but oh well." I won't try to explain why Shambhala qualifies as a bona fide cult here; that would be a big undertaking. I'd just like to re-iterate ATWW's advice that the matter deserves a second look.
Also, consider this: you might be Toydarian! i.e. you are immune from mind tricks. Seriously, you might have the kind of mind that cult dynamics don't work on. But that doesn't mean other vulnerable people around you were not experiencing them.
level 8
cedaro0o
22 days ago
Matthew Remski proposes the term, "high demand group" here instead of cult.
http://matthewremski.com/wordpress/talk ... #more-7823
level 9
CheredeDarievea
22 days ago
Matthew Remski's work is excellent.
level 8
wabashcannonball108
22 days ago
Toydarian! I need to look that one up. I think if an individual believes they have been "indoctrinated", then that view is completely valid and that person should receive support to heal. But when it gets weird for me is when that same person does THE EXACT SAME THING that is the worst part of Shambhala: telling people whose experience is different that there is something wrong with them or they are uninformed. Please! This is a root issue here, this craving for monolithic truth and total consensus. THAT feels more cultish to me than some Acharya bloviating about how perfect and precious the whole thing is. I watched the Reggie SMR thing explode first hand-- both sides were just CERTAIN the other was the enemy. That part was pathetic and insulting to me, but I stuck around because I like learning about Buddhism.
level 9
CheredeDarievea
22 days ago
telling people whose experience is different that there is something wrong with them or they are uninformed.
This is key. Tone policing and gaslighting are important techniques cults use to enforce conformity (maybe "high demand group" is better but I'm still getting used to saying that). And it's subtle. There are no conformity police walking around with sticks to beat you if you don't think the right way, but it's done verbally and socially exactly as you describe: your point of view is diminished or discarded, you are chided or patronized, told you don't have the whole teachings yet, you haven't attained the right levels, haven't been around Rinpoche enough, etc. Eventually you give up: you turn into Cool Hand Luke and get your mind right. Or, if you really think you are in the right and you persist and persist, then you turn into Reggie and you find yourself in the ejection seat.
I can remember being told we were all lineage holders. That we were all Mukpos. That we were all vajracharyas. Heck, every month at feast we exhorted ourselves to go out and gather disciples and teach. Who can blame Reggie [Reginald A. Ray], who reportedly had great talent as a teacher (never met him myself), for thinking he could function as a vajracharya in his own right but within the shadow of his own teacher's umbrella? It certainly has lots of precedent in the Tibetan system, and Reggie knew all about that system. Reggie Ray, for all his skill and wisdom, probably didn't know he was in a cult either, until too late. Surprise!
As for Toydarian, here you go. No, I'm not really that nerdy.
https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Toydarian
level 10
wabashcannonball108
20 days ago
Toydarian update: I'll accept the label but would prefer a more glamorous look. I know Reggie fairly well and studied Hin/Maha with him for several years when he was a newly minted Acharya. I really liked him and learned some things. He idealized CTR (whom I never met) to an extent that made me uncomfortable, but hey each to his own. Reggie had a messiah complex a little and knew how to push people's buttons. I have not spoken to him in years but I sense that he's a much happier person than he was back then. He tried to warn me that the Sakyong had problems with alcohol but I just thought he was throwing rocks. He used to drive a black jeep around SMC and some smartass I knew started calling him "Dr Death" because he liked to scare us about what happens if you don't practice. The Jeep would pull up and someone would say "look busy, here comes Dr. Death." He's a good guy.
level 5
wabashcannonball108
24 days ago
Also, worldguy, I watched another wall go up between Reggie and SMR and to you it seemed like an excellent at the time. Can we do it without that part?
level 4
wabashcannonball108
10 days ago
Sorry thefullnameof I can't be of help on that at this point.
level 1
Jinpasertso
23 days ago
edited 23 days ago
What I remember from my own seminary is how one particular kusung would act like a pimp and scout out potential partners for the SMR. It was like he'd sit up on his throne with his chapstick looking over the crowd and then later a kusung would approach a young, beautiful woman and ask her some questions, and the next thing said young woman would be invited to the Court where they would often wait around for hours before being called into to service him. So many of these young women thought that they were engaging in some kind of special tantric relationship with him that it blew my mind. And many of them were hurt when he discarded them like kleenex but chalked it up to it being a "teaching." What I am truly and sincerely confused by is how the Kasung are continuing to line up in their khaki to serve the Makkyi. For my own part I came to Shambhala in the mid-90's with heart full of longing and a life defined by trauma. I threw myself into the situation with every ounce of my soul and was ridiculously naive in my beliefs. That said I am grateful for having met and studied with some amazing teachers in the Kagyu/Nyingma lineages and I hold Khenpo Tsultrime Gyamtso on the top of my head. I was also told that I would never be a "senior teacher" because I was considered to be "disloyal" to the Sakyong when I questioned what I considered to be exploitative behaviors at the upper level of the organization.
level 2
allthewholeworld
22 days ago
that is not an inspiring memory to have, is it. you and I have had similar paths, and no doubt had a meal or two together. KTGR was my main person for years.
Like you, I cannot explain the continued loyalty to a community experience that so very many find unrewarding. People have been fleeing the court, a person in contact with the current court told me today. now they don't know what to do with raising their kids. what do you do if you don't have servants. I am going to ask my butler, maybe he knows.
level 1
allthewholeworld
25 days ago
and this just in: "have I heard about a sangyum who is posting about this?" I have and I think that person is the bravest person since Andrea Winn. maybe more, I don't know. I don't want her to feel dragged into this, but I do know of her and think she is a GIANT of courage. Courage in human form. If she wants to show up, you will see me respect her.
level 2
CheredeDarievea
25 days ago
Word on the street is, she'd like to talk to you too.
level 3
allthewholeworld
25 days ago
and I thought I was street smart. I'll pop my head out the window and look for the golden glow of courage that accompanies her everywhere!
level 2
Chaktsen
25 days ago
Actually,what you say is 100 percent true, the former sangyum you mention is extremely brave and sincere because she tells the truth about her own story and does so with complete honesty. She steps out and is willing to be genuine again and again. She has amazing courage and integrity. Andrea Winn cannot say the same, she uses other's stories to puff her ego and appear genuinely to be on the side of survivors, but has a huge way of taking credit for oh so much that she considers her accomplishments and exposures, which actually demeans the survivor's stories. No one should take credit for the pain and suffering survivors have endured. Beware of a wolf in sheep's clothing. The fact is she has a lot of the same qualities as the Sakyong, including that she uses people up, has serious issues with the truth, and even indulges in sexual harassment. If you check, it is easy to see. Check in with former volunteers of her organization, her financial reports, and survivors that have shared their stories with her only to hear versions of their stories slandered to others. It's sad that she has not yet been publicly exposed and that innocents continue to give money (that she pockets) to BPS.
level 3
allthewholeworld
24 days ago
a little information you could consider: i have a friend who experienced serious suicidal ideation recently, because of abuse by Mipham. An intervention followed, and she may be out of it. Without Andrea Winn's work, she wouldn't have been able to get out, I think. AW accomplished a lot, but may have done her own harm in the process— I didn't know any of that stuff. For people who have been helped, they don't need to know about AW's history. I am so glad my friend is alive, she means a lot to me and another suicide would have done me in.
level 4
Chaktsen
24 days ago
Equally, Andrea has caused tremendous harm to individuals that went to her as a resource. Your friend perhaps had a strength others didn't. Andrea's activity is not just in the past. She continues to slander survivors if they don't conform to her views and methods. She doesn't do so publicly but has no problem doing so in the backroom of BPS discussion groups. Did you know she has 2 backrooms to the BPS discussion groups where she discussed the personal stories of survivors, how volunteers were to respond to people and lots of slander, not to mention encouraging her volunteers to do the same? Most people don't know that and continue to take her at face value. In all honesty, your friends story was probably discussed there. It's sad. Because it means more cover up and dishonesty. Survivors usually have no idea they are being discussed in backroom.
level 5
hazulu
24 days ago
Nevertheless, Andrea Winn is the one who got the ball rolling, she almost single-handedly started a process that may well lead to the meltdown (long overdue) of this Shambhala charade. So give her some credit for that, please. And yes, she is a survivor too.
level 6
Chaktsen
24 days ago
No one does anything "Single handedly"...... Survivor stories shouldn't be her bread and butter. what she does with her own stories is up to her. What she does with other people's stories who trusted her, shouldn't be up to her. There are many factors regarding the Shambhala meltdown, never just one person's credit.
level 5
allthewholeworld
24 days ago
is this a PM? I can't tell. I knew none of what you just shared.
level 6
Chaktsen
24 days ago
It was but I'll leave it up. Sorry for any inconvenience.
level 3
EdmundButler
24 days ago
Perhaps you could cut her some slack given her own experience with sexual abuse in Shambhala? Clearly she, like all of us, is healing. Nobody should expect perfection in anybody else, but when a frightened voice finds its courage those of us who have the liberty to listen can afford to be generous. She has almost single handedly broken open the lid on abuse in Shambhala and inspired others more than can be known, or even admitted in some cases.
You say, "If you check, it's easy to see". Well I don't see it the way you do and I'm not a moron, so where does leave your assertion? Flat, I submit. Don't shoot the messenger because the message implies an immense amount of trauma for thousands of people here, as yet still unfolding as this post reveals in my view. There are people having suicide ideation about all of this so before you shoot down Andrea human shortcomings in bravely flagging a serial sex offender posing as a Wizard, put them in your heart maybe? At the very least present evidence to back up your salacious inuendos.
Short History of Buddhist Project Sunshine
February 27, 2017 [Launch date Buddhist Project Sunshine]
Project Sunshine is a one-year project that was launched on Shambhala Day 2017 [February 27, 2017
February 15, 2018 [Phase 1 Report]
I took this 1-year project on as one lone person who cares about the health of the Shambhala community. It was more work than I ever could have imagined! This has been done with my full heart, and I am grateful that I gave myself this gift, and that it will hopefully be received as a gift to the community.
My volunteer position radically scales down today. I will continue giving 5 hours of time a week to follow ups from the project, including fielding questions and contributing to the discussion in the Facebook forum that will be offered soon. If the community gathers energy to take further action needing a project manager, we will need to raise funds for that. But for now, let's just talk!
March 24, 2018 [Go Fund Me Page created]
Buddhist Project Sunshine Go Fund Me page created March 24, 2018
https://www.gofundme.com/project-sunshine-phase-2
June 28, 2018 [Phase 2 Report]
Next steps for Buddhist Project Sunshine
I began working on Project Sunshine in January 2017. It has been over a year and a half of gruelling work. I put my heart out in this way in the hope that genuine healing can happen for the Shambhala community. I am grateful for the healing that has already begun. At the same time I have gone into personal financial debt of $37,500. Therefore, as Buddhist Project Sunshine is coming to the end of the funds raised, I am going on a semi-sabbatical as of Friday June 29th as I begin a small paid job to make money to support myself. I will continue to host the Buddhist Project Sunshine Discussion Forum through July 31st, as promised.
In light of financial uncertainty, and in the hopes that Buddhist Project Sunshine can continue, I am initiating a dialog with a number of people who contributed to Phase 2. We will explore possibilities for group leadership of the project. All decisions about the future or possible closing of the project will be announced on the Buddhist Project Sunshine community email list....
Buddhist Project Sunshine is hosting a thriving moderated discussion group, including healthy discussion threads about Chögyam Trungpa Rinpoche’s abuses and Sakyong Mipham Rinpoche’s abuses. I (Andrea Winn) have specialized in the research and development of distance healing programs for the past 7 years. I have brought the best of what I know to designing a leading edge moderated discussion forum for anyone with a heart connection to Shambhala, so you can receive support for digesting this information and envisioning a bright future for yourself personally, and for the community. Learn more and register at: http://andreamwinn.com/offerings/projec ... ion_group/
July 31, 2018 [Buddhist Project Sunshine Discussion Forum shut down]
I will continue to host the Buddhist Project Sunshine Discussion Forum through July 31st, as promised.
http://andreamwinn.com/offerings/projec ... ion_group/
August 23, 2018 [Phase 3 Report]
Appendix 1: BPS 3-month organizational start up budget
You can donate to Buddhist Project Sunshine at our on-going GoFundMe page: https://www.gofundme.com/project-sunshine-phase-2
***
Buddhist Project Sunshine needs your support
At the end of Phase 2 [Phase 2 Report was dated June 28, 2018], I announced I was retiring because I have been over working to achieve what we've achieved with this project, and I have gone into significant personal financial debt. However, there has been a continued need for the key role I have been playing. As well, there has been an outpouring of donations to Buddhist Project Sunshine. Two hundred and twenty three people have donated $16,564 since early April [Go Fund Me Page was created March 24, 2018], which is astounding! I am so grateful! So I have surrendered to the flow of goodness and continued my work.
I have formed and run this organization through heroic exertion and passionate focus. At this point a shift must happen, however, both for my own health and the health of BPS. We are not able to work at a scale appropriate to the needs of Shambhala's healing process without paid staff.
A member of our core leadership group did research and determined an appropriate 3-person staff structure for BPS running as a non-profit organization, with an Executive Director (myself), an Associate Director, and a Development Officer. We need an Associate Director to interview, support and manage our growing number of volunteers and a Development Officer to focus on getting charitable status and ensure our financial health through continued donations.
Over the past eight months, Shambhala International has chosen not to support Buddhist Project Sunshine in our efforts to support community healing or our investigation. Instead they have chosen to retain a separate, non-transparent investigation through Wickwire Holm and to hire An Olive Branch. It is clear that BPS will require community support outside of SI leadership to keep our work going.
I have prepared a 3-month budget with the intention of it giving us time to establish nonprofit status. The budget includes mid-range salary amounts for the three needed staff positions. I am including this 3-month budget in Appendix 1 with the hope that this work is proving meaningful enough to be supported in a more secure way. Since we must raise $47,000 in additional funds, this plan calls for seed money from major donors. We will gratefully receive emails to explore major donor relationships. I would like to speak with potential major donors personally. Please email: buddhistprojectsunshine@gmail.com .
Everyone can donate to Buddhist Project Sunshine at our on-going GoFundMe page: https://www.gofundme.com/project-sunshine-phase-2
I also feel it is important to share that by some cosmic karmic fluke, my core leadership group is unavailable for service as of this week (one is on family medical leave, another is on vacation, and another has taken a full time job). I will not have anyone answering Buddhist Project Sunshine email for the foreseeable future, so my ability to respond will undoubtedly be slow. Please be patient with our slow response for the next little while. I can assure you we will get to everyone's request as soon as possible.
February 4, 2019 [Buddhist Project Sunshine completed; Go Fund Me page shut down]
$24,722 of $45,487 goal
With Buddhist Project Sunshine's mission complete, Andrea is closing her BPS social justice campaign February 4th, 2019
Without doubt, it can be said that the mission of Buddhist Project Sunshine has been accomplished at this point, and far more. The original mission was to bring healing light to the sexualized violence in Shambhala. That has happened beyond what I could ever have imagined two years ago, as in the last week the first Shambhala leader was arrested for sexually assaulting a minor and police investigations are now in progress with respect to Osel Mukpo and John Weber.
I am leaving the GofundMe campaign open until February 4th for anyone who would like to contribute to help me pay the debt I accumulated as I devoted my time and energy to BPS. My debt is $20,200. I made decisions along the way to continue to focus on BPS rather than shift my focus back to my coaching service because I personally needed the sexualized violence to be brought out into the light. I do not regret this. And now I am turning my attention to my own healing, paying my debt, and moving forward with a good life. I welcome financial help from those who feel they benefitted from my efforts. If you feel moved, you can contribute here.
I am sincerely grateful to every single person who contributed to the life changing positive work of this project.
level 4
Chaktsen
24 days ago
If only that same slack could be given to other survivors that don't ask for money, fame or a name from others suffering. It's not about perfection it is about transparency. Andrea DID NOT single handedly do anything! There were a lot of people that contributed to BPS and to making truths come out and sharing their stories. Do you know about the 2 backrooms of BPS? Ask around..... this is important. How would you feel if you were a survivor and knew that Andrea and her volunteers were discussing you behind your back and trying to decide how to best handle you? I was one of her victims, I don't need to prove anything. The pain I have endured from her negative activity is enough proof. I am not alone, ask other people that were involved in her organization and left. Chew this too: https://www.reddit.com/r/ShambhalaBuddh ... oughts_on/
Posted byu/Tsondru_Nordsin
Ex Mod/Ex Member5 months ago
Shastri Debbie McCubbin Provides Her Thoughts On Andrea Winn & Announces Intention To Step Down
Debbie McCubbin writes on Facebook
To start, I want to say clearly that I am not minimizing or challenging the important testimonies that have been publicized through Project Sunshine, and will most likely continue to surface for a while through various channels.
To the contrary -- as a result of these reports, I've chosen to step down as a Shastri for Mississauga and will be leaving the Shambhala community late this fall. (You see my previous post about stepping down by searching my name -- it's a comment under a post by Kathryn Rile for Julia Sagebien. If someone knows how to provide a link feel free to put that in the comments. ). I am incredibly appreciative and supportive of the brave people who have come forward, and hope that the Shambhala community can transform and heal through this crisis.
As I leave Shambhala, I want to offer some information that I hope will be helpful. Given that Andrea Winn and others have held Andrea up as a potential future leader or facilitator, I want to share a bit about my own experience. I was the Centre Director when Andrea left Toronto in 2002, and she also lived with me part-time for several months (currently I am not involved with Toronto, but another centre in the region, Mississauga). While the work she has done to bring these issues to light has been critical, I do feel that that shouldn't be confused with putting her into a leadership role, formal or informal.
Andrea has repeatedly mischaracterized what happened in Toronto at that time, though it's been hard to see a skillful way to raise that. Our Toronto Shambhala Centre council unanimously removed Andrea from leadership roles in 2002. There is a confidential report that was filed with the international Desung group at the time, about the reasons and the process our council went through. Andrea reporting sexual abuse was not part of that at all.
At the time Andrea did frequently share with others that she was involved in a Care and Conduct process with Shambhala International about sexual abuse when she was 16 (it was alleged to have occurred in Halifax, not Toronto); our issue was not that she shared that, but that she did it as a staff member at a Level V at great length, taking up time that was for participants. When she shared it as a participant or a colleague, there was no issue. She may believe what she is saying, as memory can be tricky; however, my memory about what happened in Toronto is supported by documents and emails from the time, as well as the recollections of other council members from that time.
From the report from that time, it is clear that the reasons for taking her out of leadership roles were her inability to work well with others; though she started out well, eventually most found her divisive, dishonest and manipulative. Some of her co-leaders in the LGBTQ group had appealed to the council to intervene, after many issues arose. In addition, her participation in the centre council as the rep for the LGBTQ group resulted in serious acrimony, after she took actions that were not agreed to by council, and then responded very aggressively when gently questioned about it. For some of these conflicts there is still an email trail preserved.
This situation caused about six months of intense suffering in our centre and many, many special council meetings as we worked through the countless issues that having her in a leadership role had created.
We did not 'kick her out of the centre' -- we took her out of two leadership roles. We eventually had to do it by email as she would not meet with the council to hear our concerns about her leadership style, despite repeated verbal and email invitations to do so. Again, this is well-documented in the report and by email trails.
As a result she chose to leave the Toronto centre. After she did leave, council members were approached by two community members who alleged additional serious and harmful misconduct on her part, that we hadn't previously known about. Neither wanted to file Care and Conduct complaints, as it seemed clear she had chosen to leave the centre; they just wanted us to know and to reinforce our decision to remove her from leadership.
So, while it is very important to support this work of transparency and change, I feel it is also important that members have this background information so that Andrea is not drawn into future Shambhala roles that would lead to more disharmony. I hope you can distinguish between my two intentions -- supporting the reporting of misconduct, while not supporting Andrea as a future leader in Shambhala.
Many of you know me and can guess how hard it is for me to post this. It's not my nature to be negative. I realize I am opening myself to criticism and part of me just wants to leave quietly! However, in my heart it doesn't feel right not to share this information about Andrea, and I feel that I am in a unique position to speak openly about this and help in a small way to create a better Shambhala for the future, even if I'm not part of it.
level 5
EdmundButler
23 days ago
So what is *your* direct experience here?
level 6
Chaktsen
3 points
23 days ago
I was a survivor that shared my story. I became a volunteer for BPS with the hope of helping fellow survivors. As a volunteer I found out about the BPS backrooms and saw that stories of survivors and what they were writing in the front room of BPS were being discussed behind the scenes. Volunteers discussed how they felt about the person, their stories and how to "handle" them this was done in a forum, private messages and in meetings. I also experienced Andrea telling volunteers how to manage people in the frontrooms. Finally, as a volunteer, I was abused directly by Andrea with her demeaning comments and aggressive requests, she even embarrassed me in front of other volunteers by making me sound low because I questioned what was happening. I began to question having a platform (backrooms as she called them) that the people in the "BPS front room" didn't know about. If survivors knew at the time that their stories were being shared on 2 other platforms behind their backs, I don't think as many people would have felt safe to share their experiences. I know I ended up feeling that way and it has caused me a lot of confusion, heartache and triggered me in many ways. There are other people that volunteered for BPS who know exactly what I am talking about. There are a lot of people that left the group because they did not feel that Andrea's method was kind.
level 7
EdmundButler
23 days ago
WOW. I'm so sorry your experience was so traumatic, in a situation where it appears you were seeking to be met with kindness, at the very least. I can only hope that you find the courage to speak your truth as a survivor, somehow, somewhere and in your own time. This last bit is paramount. You may feel, as I do, that others who don't know should be warned. It's so critical however to not attempt to warn before you feel you're ready to voice your heart.
It seems Andrea has not facilitated your voice, although it appears this was her intention. I sincerely hope you find a way to do this this, with or without the direct help of someone else.
level 8
Chaktsen
23 days ago
Thank you. I'm trying, I reached out to BPS because I thought it was a safe place. It's going to be awhile before I can do that again. I had kept my story quiet for a long time and thought finally there were others that communicated what they went through and it was similar to my experience. I am working with a therapist now one on one after the BPS fiasco, and hope that I will be able to communicate openly at some point about the abuses that I experienced while in the community. When I see Leslie Hayes speaking out, telling her truths and again and again standing up for the survivors instead of making them feel like they are something less than human I feel that there is hope for me. Leslie has never asked anyone for any money, she hasn't tried to become famous and she never uses survivor stories as a way to try and legitimize her own experiences. She's there for people. It is not the case with Andrea. I won't keep going on about it but I know that I am not the only survivor that was damaged by her.
level 9
EdmundButler
23 days ago
I think she's a very damaged person who has done a lot of healing, and feels more is required. That's purely my perception. That said, I was glad to meet Carol Merchasin via Andrea and felt they did a good thing together. It seems Carol corroborated the abuse Andrea suspected or knew was happening. That was so valuable in my view, and inspired me to publish my own story, which in turn inspired a friend to publish hers - a tale of abuse at Gampo Abbey.
I think there's so much trauma here that at times we lose sight of the benefit of being open with it - that of warning against. I don't mean to be simplistic - am I being? - and please know that I see you are in therapy and see that in itself, a;one, apart from all else and above all else as the most important thing. This was some crazy shit that went down. Don't doubt it!!
level 9
cedaro0o
23 days ago
As someone who was woken up from survivor stories, you have my deep sincere thanks. My sense was that most people who read the reports focused on Carol Merchasin's presentation of survivor stories and skipped Andrea's fluff.
I participated in the "Slack online chat forum" (Slack is the name of other online discussion tool) and witnessed on the front end the tensions you are speaking about with volunteers mentioning heated talk behind in the scenes. I wanted to share what I witnessed to corroborate your experience for others.
It is the survivor stories that are important. It is tragic that there was more pain through Andrea's process.
I wish you well in your healing. Please feel no obligation to do more than you've already done. I wish you health and happiness for your future!
level 10
Chaktsen
22 days ago
Just to say it somewhere: after my posts I received quite a number of really mean words in PMs about my speaking up about Andrea. It's kind of ironic. It's easy to make heroes and enemies, what's not easy is to be kind. I'm not lying. The BPS slack group 1-3 had a lot of poison and caused harm for people. Especially when people put their trust in the team, including in Andrea and then found out they were writing about them and their stories in closed forums without their knowledge, in the BPS backrooms. And that their private stories were shared with people they may not have wanted them shared with. If you want to make Andrea your heroine that's your choice and it has nothing to do with me. But equally, if I feel sadness and pain because of her actions, that should be ok too. We are all healing in some way and at some point, the survivors stories should become the priority and put in the forefront, not some concept of who started a communication about survivors or one single person's triumphs. Please check, there are other people out there that know exactly what I described about BPS and Andrea. There was a reason for the attrition rate of BPS support. If you want to keep supporting that organization that is your choice, but people have a right to know it is not pure in its activity and then they can decide on their own what they want to do. An organization that is suppose to be for survivors, that lies and manipulates them is probably not the best route for healing. But again, as long as people know how it functions in a transparent way, they can make their choice. I mean isn't that one of the big criticisms of Shambhala? Lack of transparency, using people and abuses? Why is it different in this scenario?
level 10
Chaktsen
23 days ago
Thank you so much. Heart rub.